Positiva and The Black Ghosts experiences

Did they take an Arsica pitch idea and roll them into the half cut the body crash track?
Is that all you get for that budget?

J Frank Oliwa

just to clarify, we did not make this, not sure who did, but this was originally posted on radar for members to pitch. It was then withdrawn. Just thought I would post it so those who did pitch can have a look at the final video.

I love your video man

body crash video on you tube

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0RO4-yLPJ18

That's fantastic that there is now pitching opportunites but I simply have no time now with working on this short and organising this Oxjam gig.
Keira Brown

Okay so I have noticed since those pitches were submitted no more commissions are swinging Radar's way as of late...anything more to digress on this...a little disappointing to see.

Keira Brown

Bring on the next round. Not for my sake - guess I'm not gonna start pitchin before I've gone HD and got 10 collaborators, for it's the history that counts. But izzall good, I'm curious about forthcoming things anyway.

"An end to need and the politics of greed - with love"

Man, that sucks. I'm sure this bad experience won't leave a bitter taste in anyones mouth for too long. Especially when the new comissions appear.

This sort of this does happen a lot, especially with labels. I've lost countless promo opportunities, all it takes is someone near top who hasn't read an e-mail properlly to pull the plug.

A real shame for everyone who did pitch though.

And I guess the problem here is why are people pissed off at all? It sucks that they did not choose any of the pitches submitted here but there was alot of positive that came out of it.

1. The Black Ghosts is a great band that I had never heard of before this with a great album. Obviously they were looking for something else. I do not think that saying a band needs to give a super detailed list of what they want is the way to go. THAT would suck and turn into people here just being monkees. Where is the creative vision in that?

2. Learn how to write and produce treatments faster. It took me a few days to write the Black Ghosts treatment but only a half day to do the Positiva one. Doesnt mean I didnt spend alot of time thinking about it while driving etc.

3. And finally I guess to just enjoy the chase and hope that one day the work we all put into it will pay off with landing commissions.

And as far as posting pitches on here to learn how to pitch, there is no cookie cutter approach and every director I know has a different way of pitching. Who knows, you might actually reuse one of these pitches for another band. There are tons of directors that have slightly reworked a old idea and won with someone else. And as a friend said, if they dont like your treatment, then its not the right fit anyways and would be better to move down the line.

They pulled out, some of us got pissed off, and this is whats left....brown stuff hit the rotating thingy......

I think we're all calming down now though.

Bring on the next round of commissions !!!!!!

wooooahhh!

I go away for three days and the shit hits the fan.
Can anyone fill me in with the positiva / black ghosts problems? I didn't pitch an idea (thankfully, looking at this) because I am working on something else. This is most worrying...

Hi Caroline

as disappointing as it might be I think there's not much to be done, after all it would have been the same if the bands did not like any of the pitches submitted (which I think they were always entitled to, am I right?)
I totally subscribe to what Alex Decampi is writing about having the pitches open to everyone's view, not a good idea! I would only show the winning ones, as a reference to everyone else

i second alexdecampi on this
i don't want my pitches - either commissioned or not - read by a third party

'My name is Legion, for we are many'

That's a fair point Alex. Maybe winning pitches and pitches from other directors on music videos already commssioned - that don't mind. This would then provide insight into pitching and various techniques, help self starters but keep copyright etc safe as the videos would have been made.

I think I'd prefer it that way too.

"Just read Caroline's comment" SORTED.

“Would you go ahead and thank what’s-his-name for me?”

aha

Ok

http://www.dovefilm.com

Ok
http://www.dovefilm.com

Hi Alex
it does say this:
"It will be subject to individual agreement, some people won't want to share un-commissioned ideas which is completely fair enough."
rest easy.
C

Caroline

I'm really, really uncomforable about having my pitches read by the general Radar membership. It opens you up first of all to all sorts of legal issues (a filmmaker may be "inspired" by someone else's pitch for a future pitch, or there can be accusations thereof) and second, frankly, I really like to keep my pitches between me and the label.

Please, please think twice or allow an opt-out before making all pitches visible to everyone. I for one would stop pitching to Radar if you did this.
----
http://www.youtube.com/alexdecampi
http://www.alexdecampi.com

Caroline
NDA winging its way to you now.

re the briefs, i would just reassure people that they should write what they think of when hearing the track, in my opinion there is no write or wrong with promos, thats what makes them great. if a client says no dancing girls, then obviously avoid that but if you have some crazy idea with dancing girls that you can explain well enough then they could be wrong and you right.. Some one mentioned above that most clients are not very visually literate etc. this is very hit and miss as i know some bands that are so visionary, others sound like they have never seen another promo. Reference is massively important to me. i think you should be able to look at the mood boards and kind of work out what its all about.. send the treatment to you parents and see what they make of it. thats a good testing ground.. hehehe.

right back to work..
thanks

marky@gluelondon.com

Thanks to everyone who has contributed ideas on this forum or by email. Your support for Radar is extremely inspiring and all your suggestions are hugely appreciated. Here's a summary of the key suggestions and where I am on the whole shebang.

It happens. So it goes.

Lots of opinions about paying upfront. In the long term, I'm all for an upfront payment once the Radar brand is strong, it sends a lot of the right messages. Right now though, the job is about profile raising and getting tryouts from clients and any kind of payment upfront is a barrier to that. However clients who have tried Radar but haven't gone to commission with us will need to make a small upfront payment to place future commissions on the site.
(thanks for the link to OpenAd Matei)

Contracts. Every client already has to agree to terms and conditions prior to working with Radar and you've probably noticed that filmmakers are also agreeing additional T&C - the annoying red box you have click your way past every time in commissions. I like the non-disclosure idea, largely because it spells it out so clearly to clients, thanks Mark et al. I'm also a big fan of short contracts. If anyone has neat, short non-disclosure wording they could send over, please do.

Online chat/conferencing. Ross and someone else I think (sorry). Thank You! Great idea. This idea is to offer online conferencing/chat for clients to talk to their shortlist. A great idea, it plugs a hole in the current Radar model, where filmmakers are a bit too anonymous to clients.

Shared pitch folder. Also a great idea, thanks everyone on the forum. I was going to make a folder for client access, emailing everything is a bit old style. Incorporating this suggestion, once a commission is closed, we can open it to all member access. It will be subject to individual agreement, some people won't want to share un-commissioned ideas which is completely fair enough.

A couple of people have suggested two tier pitching rounds. I'm not sure about that yet, it might be too laborious for clients. I'll talk to clients about it.

Briefs - can clients be more specific? I'll encourage more specific briefs and references, bearing in mind open-ended briefs do give you more room to move.

and finally, I know Radar is a truly Great Thing with massive potential, so onwards, upwards Mes Braves!

Well, if that's the case then B.G. would have been all over the pitch that was supposedly right up their alley, but alas, that did not happen...anyway, moving right along...

cheers -

sophia segal
www.sophiamedium.com

hmm, I'm sure with a bit of research into a band's selection of artwork or previous music videos one can surely find out their taste. the point about the budget rings really true though, every treatment should come with a realistic preliminary budget, just if to let the A and R dudes rest easy a little.
Brandon Tay
Director/Animator/Cinematographer
brandon@krozm.com
brandon@computersarepeopletoo.com

I'm sure someone at Radar will figure it out while taking some keen perspectives into account.

Sophia Segal
www.sophiamedium.com

Lets be honest, 2 commissions out of 4 ain't bad and further more it's 4 more than I would have had to pitch on. I think Annxiao and Mark J have a great idea with sharing our pitches. It’ll help me for one to see where I could improve as I’m still trying to develop my pitching skills and if Caroline or anyone with contacts can get pitches from other signed directors that would be really beneficial too. But like everyone has said, it’s the nature of the beast. I mean everyone wants something for free right? Copying a friend’s album or downloading it off of the net, isn’t fair either, not saying anyone here does that but you get my point. It’s just the way it rolls. As long as we all keeping grafting, filming, making stuff, smiling (as Alex said) and supporting Radar how ever successful we get it’ll all be worth it.

“Would you go ahead and thank what’s-his-name for me?”

Of course, you are right Alex. I was not referring to the label, but that came out wrong. I stand corrected.

flemming jetmar
dp

Just a note here - you might want to refrain from making negative comments about a label on a public forum such as this. Sure, have a good old grouse down the pub, but it may not be wise to make direct comments such as that here.

Positiva are a big, popular label that have been around for a while and know the score. They were placed in a very difficult position it seems; they didn't appear to know that the band had gone off and spoken to a production company until it was too late - and in situations like this, it's very hard for them to say no to the talent who - remember - are more important to them than we/our feelings are. These things happen - in fact, it happened to me with another label.

Like I say, move on, keep smiling, and perhaps Positiva will offer us another commission opportunity for a future single.
----
http://www.youtube.com/alexdecampi
http://www.alexdecampi.com

Agreeing with all the above and sure it’s good that the unsigned can have a chance to pitch.

However, I don’t give a flying hoot if this happens all the time!

Black Ghosts.
When not given a proper brief then everyone will pitch like headless chickens in a dark room.

It’s a bit like shooing a film without a script. How the hell do I know how to visualize the director’s thoughts if you don’t talk to me? They gave nothing for people to work with. I’m sure they got some good and above the line treatments but they obviously don’t know how to give a good brief.

So, as a lot of people kindly have pointed out, I too agree that there should be some guide lines for the artist.

- A brief with a premise or a hint to other artist videos they like, or film references and styles. Something a bit more than; ‘We are looking for a great idea’ (aren’t we all?!)

- Give the artists a clear message of what to expect for their budget. Perhaps have two samples for them to compare with, i.e. say a £5k and a £20k video, so they can physically see for themselves. Music can be made cheap, filming is a different world (we know they don’t). Musicians have rhythm and good ears but and not necessarily a visionary mind.

- Build up the Radar brand first so it gets a good reputation. Then charge a minimum fee for the luxury of being showered in 50+ quality pitches;

- Have artists/label sign a non-disclosure agreement , which includes that them being a new ‘costumer’ they will not get the final video before the outstanding is paid to production company (you have to build a relationship with the label/artist, trust is earned, not taken for granted).

As for Positiva.
What a bunch of w@nkers!
And if I see any of my radar mates’ pitches being used, I’ll come around their house with my big black fury friend Scooby Doo to sort them out.
But not to worry, I'm sure they will come back to everyone who spend time on this, give a personal apology and even send us a little gift for all the trouble.

Apart from that we keep motoring on.

flemming jetmar
dp

we're all indie filmmakers. some with more experience than others, and those with experience know this more than anyone... people just starting out, like we filmmakers.... like radar.... have to live in rejection. It's the nature of the beast. It's unfair what happened, it isn't ideal, but... it's life.

keep writing. keep pitching. keep filming.we'll all be better for it.

eventually.

-----
Mike Bailey
mike@mike-bailey.net
demo reel-- http://www.vimeo.com/901611

Even though the commissions are withdrawn, I'm actually very interested in seeing and sharing out pitches. I'd love to see how everyone has different ideas for the same tracks.

thats a nice idea, someone has suggested to caroline that wining pitches could be shown but maybe an open blog for PDF's etc could be interesting..
mark

www.homecorp.tv
www.gluelondon.com

Ditto me for most of the comments. It was a bit of work putting the pitches together, so its a drag to think they have fallen into the black hole of "rejects" I will say that in my business of commercial motion design pitching, we often see our pitches made by another company, and there is very little we can do, without spending money on lawyers, etc, and as Alex said, there are always more ideas.

However, since we put work into these things, I think we should get something out of them, even if it is only the acknowledgments of our peers... to that end, can we start a blog to post rejected pitches and mood boards? That way, if you want, you can share your pitch with other radar members. I for one, would love the feedback... Anyone else?

S. Ashraf Meer filmmaker
www.ashrafmeer.com

I'm one of those who are simply glad to see ANY way for us independent/unsigned to have a shot at some nice commisions. It's also a great way to try my hand at writing treatments.
I was upset to see this happen, simply because this site is such a good idea and I know once these kick ass videos get made, more and more bands/labels will want a part in it. Too bad we have to wait a bit longer for the revolution to fully begin!

Eric Power
www.clearproductions.net

heh
no biggie, this happens all the time in the film industry (let alone the mv's)

but i think it is radar that should offer some form of protection to its 'clients', be it either directors or artists/labels.
i'd recommend openad.net for further reading (it resembles in some way radarmusicvideos, the two main differences being that:

1. openad always charges clients - when they post a brief, they pay a price.
thus they can ward off unreliable clients

2. people can only start pitching after they've signed an agreement

as the saying goes: verba volant, scripta manent (roughly: spoken words fly away, written words remain).

i can live without part 2, but i think radar should start working on part 1.

but most important keep your heads up.
shit happens.
so what.

'My name is Legion, for we are many'

I agree with most of my "fellow filmmakers"...

This is business as usual in the video production business... I'm quite sure it happens a lot to all of us so don't worry to much about it Caroline, it's their loss anyway! Radar is a great initiative that gives many of us opportunities that we wouldn't get elsewhere so kudos for everyone at Radar!

Keep up the good work!

Some positive toughts there Panopticon,

yes it needs to move in the right direction, or it will be a lost opportunity, and don't forget we spent a few days on those pitches, someone spent quite a few weeks on this site.

http://www.dovefilm.com

I think Radar is a great idea in concept and I'm glad that I got in on the ground floor. I'm sure that you will figure out an enticing way to plug your members to bands and labels.

I was a bit dubious that a $30,000 commission would go through, especially with that short a turn-around. I am disappointed that no one got the Buy Now and Black Ghost jobs... in a way, that's worse than my pitch losing out to another Radar member. The Radar community needs to start getting commissions to make the Radar name stronger.

I know that people lose out commissions all the time, and occassionally pitches get stolen. I think the best thing for Radar to do is to prepare its members that commissions may not happen at all... and give us a reason to stick with Radar.

I think Caroline needs to work out a way for all of us to be able to see other pitches that DO get picked up (whether they're Radar pitches or not) so we can be more competitive in the market.

I'm not saying that bands should pay a fee for treatments. I agree with dovefilm that they're unlikely to do so anyway. But I do think that if they are using this site then should be aware that they are getting something for nothing and behave accordingly.

Most production companies I know would not touch budgets for 4K as they don't make any money on them. Production company fees are tiny on budgets much bigger than that, and at the end of the day they need to make money on projects or they fold (and many do).

I've been fucked over by labels using my concepts and my videos as a basis for other work before. It's common practice once they own the product. There should be some kind of intellectual property protection agency that protects content providers from insidious marketing scum.

Brandon Tay
Director/Animator/Cinematographer
brandon@krozm.com
brandon@computersarepeopletoo.com

Ann, they won't pay, they don't NEED to.

It's easy enough to look up 'music video production' on google and send an email with an mp3 or stream link to all of them, then each company will assign it to it's director who will each spend hours/days on it for free, it's the way it goes.

http://www.dovefilm.com

I agree with Chris, to get people to pitch, the band should pay a fee for the treatments.
59 pitches is a large number for a small budget commission of 4K. It’s really hard to believe that they are still not happy with the quality of the treatments. Personally I spent 3 days preparing the pitch and I believe the other 58 directors put just as much effort as me.
I think that before they start inviting for the pitches, they shall agree with Radar to pay for at least 10-20 best treatments. They shouldn’t abuse the time, energy and creativity of the directors.
The news about the Black Ghosts and Pisitiva are very disappointing but Radar is still a great platform for promo directors. We will grow together and a find better ways to work it out.
Thanks for your effort Caroline!

Ann

Pulling something in public without proof and without going through the courts first is called LIBEL in the UK,

And it's so good in the UK that people come from abroad to sue :-)

http://www.dovefilm.com

What can I say???Am obviously gutted about the pitches being withdrawn...I have to agree with a few of the comments made above, how can they not like a single idea from 59???I find that quite unbelievable to be honest...Am a little concerned that ideas/concepts can easily be stolen/re-invented by production companies that the label/band already had lined up before posting on the radar website.

Am loving the website though and the chance to pitch to bands and record labels. It is a shame that these two dropped out cause it would've been nice to hear the winnn pitch and see the end result. Anyway, the Arisca commission is still running so good luck to all who have pitched for that one and lets hope that they don't drop out as well.

Keep up the good work Caroline.

Well for the black ghosts, if they didn't like anything not much we can do about it.

Yes it was 4K we knew it and knew what it meant otherwise wouldn't have participated no ?

As for non disclosure agreements quite true, don't know if it was being applied here, but again, it all boils down to the ability to prove things, and it gets even more complicated when your client isn't in the same country as you are, hell it's difficult even when they are in the same town :-)

http://www.dovefilm.com

I agree with the "move on" sentiment. About 33% of the things I pitch for, they pull the single, change the budget/concept, or the artist ends up commissioning some mate of theirs (ahoy, shitty video!). It's the breaks... you just have to keep heaving jelly at the wall.

At least we're getting our work in front of commissioners who wouldn't otherwise see it. Maybe they'll keep us in mind for future work.

And as for stealing pitches, fuck it, if you only have one good idea and you're super-precious about it, you shouldn't be in this business. If they nick your pitch (note: extremely unlikely), then there are PLENTY of ways to pull them up in public about it (SRO, Antville, Videostatic, Promonews, etc).

I absolutely don't think that Radar should charge an up-front fee to labels.

Right, NEXT!
----
http://www.youtube.com/alexdecampi
http://www.alexdecampi.com

that goes without saying surely..

Like Chris said, I am also surprised they didn't like any of the 59 submitted. Having seen the lego inspired video, I thought they would be positive about a few of the pitches and have more imagination.
Tash
Enter the Treehouse

I work on projects all the time where we meeting with prospective prod companies etc and get them to sign Non disclosure agreements, it take 2 minutes and is much more full proof than not having anything. I don't mean to make a big deal out of this but a simple tick box T&C's like we have to access the briefs is all they need..

i think we have drifted from the subject here

we should be worrying less about labels stealing ideas that haven't been chosen

and more about getting more opportunities and hopefully jobs . . .

I think this is a really good idea.. at the end of the day you can only do so much with £5 grand and if big labels and band have nothing to loose by opening it up to Radar then brilliant.